User talk:Brian Kurtz
Old Discussions Metahumans Thought I'd give you a heads up about an easy way to get metahumans to auto-cat; simply list their "AlienRace = Metahuman." See Colin Brandywine (New Earth) for an example. The same thing works for Human/Alien Hybrids. The Paradox 23:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC) ::Cool! Good to know! Metahumans will also auto-cat in the Origin field as well. --Brian Kurtz 23:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC) :::Actually, I'm not sure that's true. Look at this version of Colin Brandywine (New Earth), in which Metahuman is in the origin but not Race field. At the bottom of the page, I'm not seeing a Metahuman cat. (Or category.) That's what caught my eye and why I added it to Race. The Paradox 23:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC) :::(Not the breakdown all the way at the bottom, but the category list at the end of the article.) The Paradox 23:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC) ::Weird. It used to add it automatically. Mebbe something changed with all the template updates. Not sure. Good lookin' out. --Brian Kurtz 02:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::Fixed! Sorry about the temporary Metahuman autocat outage. Hybrid now puts the character in the Human Alien Hybrid Category as well. :::Cheers! :::— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 06:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Not a good idea with Hybrids - there are other types than just Human/Alien, especially in the LSH era. Would somebody please remove that bit? The Paradox 21:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Gallery Categories Would you add to each of the following protected category pages? * Category:Character Galleries * Category:Cover Art Galleries * Category:Fan Art Galleries That will force them to appear on the first page of Category:Galleries. I'm still trying to figure out the relationship between the various Image and Gallery categories. I asked Nathan a few days ago to shed some light, but since you work with images so much perhaps you would be better situated to help me understand. The Paradox 21:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Hyena I know we were talking about this on your old talk page, but I couldn't access that right now (idk why, not important). Anyway, first of all, I just made a page for Villains United 3, the death of the Hyena we've been wondering about, so I suppose we should probably make a final decision on this. Anybody else watching this page, I encourage you to jump in on this one also. Anyway, both Jivan Shi and Summer Day are supposed to be dead. Here are their two deaths, I owned both of the comics, so I scanned both of them in: Image:Hyena Death 01.jpg|Villains United 3 Image:Hyena Death 02.jpg|Salvation Run 6 :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 19:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC) Hrrrm. Tough call. I'd hate to make an arbitrary decision, but in lieu of better evidence, I guess we'll have to. I propose we make Summer the Villains United final death and Jivan the Salvation Planet final death. On their respective pages under "Final", we should probably include a footnote indicating that it is unclear which Hyena is which. Personally... I think this is just DC screwing up and not paying attention to their own continuity. Oh... and the previous discussion can be found on my Archives page. My talk page was gettin' kinda long and I wanted to trim the fat, so to speak. --Brian Kurtz 19:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC) superman page Hey Brian can you do a favor revert the Superman page from "the Paradox" edits whose is jumbling all the entries together and LOCK the page from anymore of his edits as I am starting to get a little tired of this back and forth. I tried talking to him but it seems I have all the social skills of a dead mouse. Maybe I should go away again for a few more months. I do not want todo a another edit war as I had with the Power Girl and Earth-22 Superman pages.... Kal_l_fan 11 October 2008 ::Which Superman pages, specifically, are you referring to? ::Oh... and we might be separating Kingdom Come Supes from Earth-22 Supes in the near future. Hopefully that'll ease some of the problems that I've seen going on with that page. --Brian Kurtz 05:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC) :::Yeah the main Superman disambig as you can see. :::I see you or someone else got the preview copy of JSA 21 or the Kingdom Come special as to what Alex Ross intends to do this version Kingdom Come series. :::I am still going to wait until the final versions of the books are released pending my earlier agreement regarding those pages. :::Kal_l_fan 11 October 2008 ::::So Brian so is it decided that the main Superman page is to remain in this disorganized format? I'm asking because I do not want to start a ping pong edit war. If this is what you have decided so be it. ::::Kal_l_fan 11 October 2008 ::Well, admin status aside, its not really my place to make a final decision, as the Superman disambig page will doubtlessly evolve as more characters are created and more information is provided. That's the beauty, and yes, sometimes the detriment of a community project such as this. I appreciate that you don't want to start a ping-ping war, I'm pretty certain that nobody really does. All that would yield is frustration for all parties, and ultimately make the Database a less-fun place to be. Again... something that nobody wants to see happen. Currently, I echo Mrblonde267's sentiments as written here. I think that something this broad involving such a major character should not be decided upon arbitrarily, and should probably involve the entire community. The forums would be the best place for this. Please, feel free to start a forum topic on the matter. Perhaps even some of the editors from the Marvel side of the fence could give an outsider's perspective (so to speak). --Brian Kurtz 17:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC) Earth-AD sentient animals follow-up Just wondering if you've had a chance to reference your Kamandi Archives yet to determine whether they were called Animal Men or Animal People. I'm holding back on templating the Kamandi comics until it's confirmed one way or the other. No hurry, though, as there's plenty of other articles to work on in the meantime. The Paradox 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC) ::No, I haven't looked yet, though I'm glad you reminded me. I'll have to wait a little while though. The book's in the bedroom and I don't want to wake my wife up. --Brian Kurtz 02:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC) Superman Annual/Covers Fyi, I just sort of revamped that gallery and added a whole bunch of new images, including some new versions of old ones you had already uploaded, but with different names to follow the convention. I also went around and replaced a bunch of your covers while I was at it. Do you mind? If you do, my bad, I'm just like really getting fiercely into Annuals right now and I want them all to be named the same way. Just thought I'd pay you some face time on this one in case you care. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 01:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::No prob. I prefer having all cover issues follow a common naming convention anyway. --Brian Kurtz 02:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC) User page stuff I guess the User Page Template hasn't been updated to include the category of images in the See Also, so here you go. The Paradox 05:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC) * Category:User:Brian_Kurtz/Images Suggested Change Earth-Nolan > Nolanverse? Earth-Burton > Burtonverse? Thoughts? :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 01:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC) ::Hey, that sounds pretty good. Helluva lot better than Earth-Nolan and Earth-Burton. I'd like to get User:The Paradox's input as well, but otherwise I say let's go for it. ::The only problem with this naming convention I foresee, is what if a director directs a future unrelated DC Comics film project? Ala "Tim Burton Presents: Ambush Bug - the Movie!" (which personally, I would love to see). Is that something you think we should worry about, or should we just wait and cross that bridge when we come to it? --Brian Kurtz 19:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC) :::I'll admit to some reluctance about having an entire reality named after a real-world person, rather than some other common denominator. It also runs into problems when the directorship changes halfway through the franchise. But given the two (three if you count the serials) movie continuities for both Supes and Batman, I don't really see a better solution, and, as Brian says, "Helluva lot better than Earth-Nolan and Earth-Burton." The Paradox 20:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Knightfall Brian, it was you who did all of that excellent work on Knightfall, correct? Well, as a part of my campaigns in both the Crossover Stubs and See Also Templates sections, I'm trying to make big crossovers a lot easier to navigate around as I come to them. I was wondering how you would feel about a new template for Knightfall, along the lines of the other crossover stubs. The new one I made looks like this: Anyway, just asking for your input on it before I go around substituting it on all of those old pages. Anything you think I should add/change? :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 00:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC) :Tangentially related to that is Category:Batman Templates, part of the effort to bring some logic and order to the stubs and templates. Eventually the goal is to have centralized categories for all major characters and teams. I'ts just too difficult to find them in the various continuity, character, topic boxes, navigation, etc. categories. The Paradox 00:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC) ::It looks great so far, man. These templates you've been belting out have really spruced up the pages! I can't think of any suggestions just yet, but if I do, you'll be the first to know. --Brian Kurtz 03:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC) Sounds cool. And actually, that time it didn't have to be deleted, I originally just laid out the full thing on the page but the Paradox added some extra code to it to make it... do that thing it did. And thank you, I'm glad you're enjoying them. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 03:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC) :I think of it as T'emplate '''L'ink, written , that produces a clickable link to the template specified. I forget about it a lot. The Paradox 03:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC) Template:Supporting Characters It's been six months since it's creation (and only edit), and nothing links to it. Was this going somewhere, or is it one of those ideas that just never got off the ground? Trying to trim the redundant and unused templates, and this might be a candidate for "buh-bye." The Paradox 15:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC) ::Ahh, yes. I remember this. This, as well as was something I was experimenting with, but couldn't get it to work the way that I wanted it to. The purpose behind this was to create a collapsible character list for comic issue pages where the cast of characters is ridiculously long. See Infinite Crisis Vol 1 6 for a good example. Let's not dump it '''just yet... I want to see if Nate can possibly tweak it so that it will fit well within the comic issue template. --Brian Kurtz 15:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC) :::Okay. I'm actually starting a list of "questionable" templates to bring to people's attention so I'll just add this one and tag it for Nathan. I'm gonna have to quit fooling around and really learn the coding soon. :) The Paradox 15:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC) ::I just left a message with Nate. Hopefully, he can tweakify these templates and then we can start putting them to good use on select comic pages. I foresee these actually becoming useful what with all this Final Crisis stuff. --Brian Kurtz 15:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC) :Great message, and an even greater idea. I've come up with two drafts. They're not exactly what you had, Brian, but they look exactly the same as the template now, with the show/hide functionality. Check out for two ways I involved the idea there. First, we could break up the sections into specific templates, like you had, and such. Or we can use the non-specific template, , and specify the section name for each part. Both ways are up and working on the Infinite Crisis #6, so you guys can check it out, play with it on your sandboxes or previews, and see which way you like best. It's really a great idea. :A lot of times, people are looking for the synopsis of the issue before they care about who's in it, but the appearances section tends to balance out the infobox better than the synopsis, so that was the basis for why it came first. With collapsible sections, we really get the best of both worlds. It might be something we think about incorporating across all the comic templates in time. :Let me know what you think. :) :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 21:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC) ::This does look like a really cool idea, but can I suggest that we don't use the featured characters one? I think if you have so many main characters that you need to retemplate it, maybe it's just time to bump a couple of people down to 'Supporting Cast'. I kind of like seeing the appearances section first, because it gives me like a rough idea of who's important in the issue before I read anything else. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 22:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC) ::Hey, these look GREAT so far. Can't wait to see what else you do with 'em. ::Billy, I agree. That's why I think we should only use this idea on specific issues. Some stuff though, like Crisis, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, etc., it becomes kinda tough to determine who's a "feature" character and who's not. --Brian Kurtz 22:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC) :We could also do multiple columns to shorten the list instead. Would that be something you're interested in? :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 07:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC) Template work It's still being compiled, but you may be interested in what I've found so far. I've already pointed out the duplicates to Nathan since you and he are responsible for most of them. I'd rather there only be one template for each function, primarily to make things easier to find for new users by reducing the sheer number of templates. As a relative newcomer myself, I can assure you it's not easy. It's taken me this long just to confirm that there are duplicates. Before that can happen, however, there needs to be some agreement on the names of the categories they populate. The Paradox 06:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC) ::The first two you addressed can definitely go. and . These were leftovers from when we merged with another Wiki. I'll let Nate address the more code-centric templates. That's more his gig than mine. I'll look into some of those other dup templates. --Brian Kurtz 06:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Image Categories I removed the Day of Judgment subject from a couple of the covers you edited, because I try to reserve the Images/Event categories for actual panels, and not for cover art. We have no shortage of Day of Judgment images, so it's not like an underused category, and all of the crossover covers can be found in Day of Judgment/Gallery anyway. I realize though that this is one of the many personal preference related things that we don't actually have a policy for, so I'm bringing it up with you because I don't want to seem like I'm being inexplicably snitty. Problems? :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 22:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC) ::No probs here. I'm just glad that we have enough material to populate a lot of our gallery pages/categories. --Brian Kurtz 01:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC) I thought I would also bring up something else while I was here on the subject of the Day of Judgment crossovers. Because I love help on indexing my crossovers, especially so I don't have to go out and buy every single damn back issue of Impulse. I feel like we're sort of going different directions on this one. To clarify, I like to keep the crossover stubs (i.e. ) at the bottom of the page, below all of the other information, instead of in the RR section. For Day of Judgment, instead I've been using , which provides Recommended Reading for the entire DC Universe Magical Community wherever it's placed, in terms of the larger storylines and volumes. Also, I try to make a list of links for any crossover I'm working on. In the case of Judgment, in the Links and References will automatically just populate that with some of the few skimpy links I've compiled on this not that prominent crossover. It's not that important, but I know you share my OCD in terms of liking seeing fields filled out. Anyway, thanks again for your help on these bad boys. We should compare notes on crossovers more often. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 02:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC) ::Gotcha! I totally relate to the OCD thing! Though in all honesty, it probably would be in your best interest to go out and buy every single back issue of Impulse. You'll thank me later. lol --Brian Kurtz 02:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Move templates Would you unprotect and for a few days in light of this? Nathan got the category and but overlooked the other two. Thanks! The Paradox 19:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC) ::Okay, I think I got it this time. They should be unprotected. --Brian Kurtz 19:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC) :::Seem to be - thanks. Now I would like some advice. is for Full Name Unknown characters. I was thinking of creating Category:Full Name Unknown and make it a sub of Category:Move, so that they're not mistaken for articles that can actually be moved now, but I'm wondering if I should just use Category:Identity Unknown as the destination instead. They're essentially the same, except that the latter implicitly acknowledges that we may never know the full real name while the former assumes the opposite. Whaddya think? The Paradox 20:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC) ::Category:Identity Unknown seems like a good place for 'em. I like the idea of sub-catting it to the Move category. Go for it! --Brian Kurtz 20:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Please offer your input at Category talk:Move. The Paradox 00:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Email hey Brian, not sure if you've seen it or not, but do you have a response for Jamie's email to your yahoo email account? Roygbiv666 19:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC) ::Yup, I got it. I replied back to him, though I don't know if anything became of it yet. I responded with two thumbs up. --Brian Kurtz 20:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Sam Lane I'm aware there's some jazz surrounding Sam Lane at the moment. Something about him coming back from the dead, or never having been dead? I haven't been keeping track of New Krypton, so I'm out of the loop. But I thought at the very least I could contribute the back issues from my big Our Worlds at War omnibus, and I just got to Sam Lane's death myself. Could you do me a favor and write up some information about in the notes section on the page, because you've presumably read the NKS, and I haven't? :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 17:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC) ::So far, nothing has really been explained. Lane's apparent resurrection was the big reveal of that issue. The only thing that is known is that he is working with Agent Assassin and that he has somehow captured Brainiac. The issue concludes with him making a deal with Lex Luthor. On that subject though... do you know exactly which OWAW issue he died in? --Brian Kurtz 17:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC) ::Duh! Never mind that last bit. You already indicated the issue number. --Brian Kurtz 17:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Image:Gone Fishing 01.jpg You deleted this awhile back. Can I request that it be brought back? I know it's currently not in use, but I uploaded it for a specific user template, . The Gone Fishing template isn't currently being used by anyone, but it has a purpose. I understand why you deleted the image, there are just extra circumstances in this case. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 00:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC) :Beat you to it, Bri guy. ;) :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 01:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC) ::Thanks, Nate! --Brian Kurtz 12:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Are you aware of any reason that one shouldn't go through and just delete the Comics '''Title' --> Comics:Title Vol 1'' empty redirects? The Paradox 18:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC) ::Nah, a lot of those can probably be dumped. Keep the ones with the "Merge" prefix though. Those were left over from a Wiki that we merged with and for legal reasons, we should probably hold onto those since they contain the article history of whoever originally created the page(s). --Brian Kurtz 20:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC) :::Kewl - I had a feeling you might know of some site history that would influence this. Thanks. The Paradox 20:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Justice League America I've been meaning to look into this one for awhile now. Justice League America is just one of those teams that's sort've been in site-limbo for awhile now. What are we considering them? I've always assumed they were a sub-section of Justice League International, just like Justice League Europe was (and we have a page just for that). Do we want to add it to the Justice League of America (New Earth) content, though? If so, where do we draw the line between what was JLI and what was JLA? I'm not asking you to answer all of these questions, I'm just sort of rhetorically asking them for the community. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 22:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Silver Age Titles Do you still want to try to maintain this list, given that Category:Silver-Age now exists, and there are not equivalent articles for Golden Age Titles or Modern Age Titles, or should it just go bye-bye? The Paradox 10:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Ahhh yes... I remember that page. Yeah, it's probably redundant now. It was created before we started using our current comic templates. It can be dumped. --Brian Kurtz 12:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Subpages Do you know how to get a listing of subpages? For instance, I'm thinking of turning Titans into a disambig but want to see all the associated pages first. The Paradox 13:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC) ::The closest I can think of would be the "What Links Here" section on the Toolbox side-bar. Not sure if that'll help or not. --Brian Kurtz 13:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Team Titans reality There's a new Move discussion regarding some articles you just created at Category talk:Move. The Paradox 20:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Block review Would you mind reviewing the block just executed to make sure it was done correctly, was not excessive, etc.? The Paradox 22:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC) ::Feel free to give an infinite expiry time to spammers. You certainly aren't overstepping any boundaries there. Mostly, these advertisers don't return to the site anyhow. --Brian Kurtz 22:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC) In The News Any problems with me renaming this "The Daily Planet" on the Main Page? Roygbiv666 20:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC) ::That sounds pretty cool actually. The Dude abides! --Brian Kurtz 20:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Couple of Things I don't know if you've noticed this, but the pound symbol does weird things to the appearances. Usually, it's better to just make a solo article for a character, but if that isn't worth it, then I recommend making a redirect. Because the way the appearances section works, for example, with villains like Misfit, the autocategorizing will stop at the pound symbol. So typing in Misfit will not put into Category:Misfit/Appearances, or even Category:Titans Villains#Misfit/Appearances, but into Category:Titans Villains, which is misleading and weird naming. The same goes for other things like Gotham City Locales. Category:Gotham City Locales is weirdly filled with comic issues. Just a heads up. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 00:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::Yeah, I've been trying to experiment with different ways of doing this. Definitely one of the down-sides to the auto-categorizing of appearances (especially older pages that I did before we went to that format). --Brian Kurtz 00:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC) :::I've tried one approach with Arizona that I think works and could be applied to Characters. List the location as an appearance, i.e. Desecration in JLofA #198. Make that a redirect to the parent article, i.e. Arizona. Include a link in the parent article to the Appearances, Gallery, etc. categories/subpages for the obscure location. It's a bit of a hack, but it avoids less-than-Minor articles while still allowing for the creation of a profile of the subject. With locations, I could foresee using the Appearances to create a history as it specifically relates to the DC Universe. (In WWII France, the Boy Commandos yada yada yada. In 1987, the Justice League yada yada yada.) It would be a simple matter to do the same with Characters. The Paradox 01:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::::Oh, and here's another one. I've noticed you doing some good work with the See Also Templates. First of all, I'm not sure if you realize that Templates can easily be redirects. You don't have to delete old ones when you're replacing them. You can just move them. At least... I think so. I haven't done that in awhile. Also, I recently saw the creation of . We already have one at . If you want to move some information over to that one, be my guest. Otherwise, I think I'm just going to redirect GL RR to the other one. Which will allow us the shortcut anyway. :::::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 01:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::Templates as Redirects? No, I did not know that. That's pretty effing cool. --Brian Kurtz 13:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Also, for the crossover templates, categories are useful, but I find it best to limit category use only to actual events, not just storylines. The Navigation templates are sort of becoming extinct, but even if you're going to make a full-fledged stub, maybe you don't need to make a new category everytime? The point of the crossover stubs is, they allow for navigation between the articles. And when there are as few of those articles, so well connected as are storylines like Total Chaos and Titans Hunt (which, I believe, is almost entirely sequential), categorical navigation becomes less of a necessity. I'm just trying to make sure that Category:Crossovers doesn't get overpopulated. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 20:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::Yeah, good point. Titans Hunt doesn't really need a category since its all within one title. --Brian Kurtz 20:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Tennessee points of interest Just wanted to verify that you intended to list Atlanta as a Point of Interest in Tennessee. The Paradox 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::OOOPS! Good catch! I just fixed it. --Brian Kurtz 19:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Articles needing templated FYI, since you seem to be doing a bit of templating recently, this page currently contains a Dynamic Page Listing of all properly categorized articles that still require templates. I've asked Nathan if he can run his bot to tag them, but until then this is much more complete than Category:Template Required. The Paradox 21:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::Oh, cool! That'll be really useful. Thanks! --Brian Kurtz 21:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Steven des Kelches and Reiter-Nacht/Gallery Back on April 3, a one-timeuser uploaded a bunch of images about a character named Steven des Kelches who was allegedly a love interest of the new Supergirl. ( ) The article itself was determined to be a hoax or fan-fiction and deleted, but now we've got all these images that have nothing to do with the site. I'm about ready to delete the images and galleries (including the User page and User:DemoniacSasy/Gallery), but wanted another set of eyes to verify that every single bit of this can go buh-bye. The Paradox 20:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC) ::Yeah, these are bogus articles. I had thought we had done away with them already, but I guess not. All of those pages can be deleted. --Brian Kurtz 20:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC) :::Done. The Paradox 21:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Vehicle Template I'm going to start upgrading the Vehicle template to give it the same interconnectedness to subpages and categories as most of the others. Are there any new fields or other suggestions you have while I'm at it? The Paradox 18:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC) ::Hmmm. I remember the old old template had listings for equipment, on-board weaponry... stuff like that. Maybe that can be worked in somehow? Can't really think of much else. --Brian Kurtz 19:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC) :::That works. If you (or anybody else) thinks of anything further, just let me know... The Paradox 19:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC) ::::So it turns out those options (Capabilities, Weapons, Onboard Equipment) still exist within the Template, but aren't part of the Standard Options or the button text. I'm adding 'em to the Standard Options template documentation, but do you know how to access the pages associated with the row of buttons that appear in Editing windows? The Paradox 20:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC) ::I have absolutely no idea. I've often wondered that myself. Nate would definitely know. --Brian Kurtz 20:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Family Trees I don't know if you've thought about this for family articles, but there is Template:Smallbox as used on Allen Family. I thought it was kinda neat when I ran across it. The Paradox 19:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Oh wow... that is way cool. I'm experimenting right now with the Kent Family (you wouldn't believe how big their family tree is). I'll have to play around and see if I can work that in somehow. Thanks! --Brian Kurtz 19:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC) : My pleasure. I don't envy you the task, and hope you'll take a sanity break before tackling the House of El (if that is, in fact, your plan). The Paradox 19:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC) ::Whew! House of El will definitely be a chore. Unfortunately, those obscure "Tales of Krypton" stories are tough to come by. I would certainly like to see that article beefed up some though. --Brian Kurtz 19:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)